Got Wood ? :)

[Togo]

Hello People, I apologise if everyones getting slightly irritated with me starting new threads every 5 minutes and not continuing them, i'm usually short on time these days though so apologies, i do take into account everyones answers, points etc.

Firstly i'm talking about the wooden dummy, how many people here own one or have used one ? Do you think it's a useful piece of equipment? Do you happen to know the actual form yet, If so how long into your training was it before you where taught the set ?

Grandmaster Kwok showed us the first section during the last seminar held here and let us quickly try out some of the applications of it on a partner.

Also speaking of wood, has anyone here tried breaking techniques on wood/other materials using wing chun, i know that there's not a whole lot of point in this and very little emphasis placed upon this aspect compared to other martial arts but i'm interested to see if anyone's tried it.

I used to do a lot of board breaking in Tae Kwon Do but it was mostly for demo purposes/gradings but it did give me a sad sense of satisfaction hearing the splintering of wood and thinking i was col for about 10 seconds till some smarmy black belt pointed out it was only 25mm pine wood... ;D

[Dan]

Yo - Its really good you post lots, it gets everyone talking about stuff and thinking which is good

I have learn't the dummy form, and i think its awesome def the best (in terms of fun to do) form! also its the most useful form (although you still need the others so you cant really compare). I started learning it after Chum Kiu just under 2 years into my training i guess. If you have a dummy to use start learining ASAP. or if your handy make your own dummy or if you rich buy one coz they are really good. (if you need plans to build one let me know ill email u some, Or if anyone else wants plans, coz James drew up some good ones)

as for breaking with wing chun its quite easy depending on what u break, punching through 25mm pine is like punching through toast sometimes (although it can be tough) just get some and try it if u want, worst case scenario = you may break your knuckles, but it wont hurt and shouldn't take to long to heal. When we do demos with sifu we oftern do breaking - but it looks super bad if it dont break.

[hpclub]

This is an interesting topic. I have a dummy at home having managed to save up and buy a used one. I love it and cant get enough but I dont think the old lady upstairs appreciates it!

One question I have is which Dan may be able to answer is the order in which you should progress through the forms. I understand that it was traditional to learn the wooden dummy after Chum Kui omnce you had learnt the footwork.

My question is that there is obviously techniques in the wooden dummy that dont appear in 1st form or 2nd form but do appear in 3rd empty Hand form so I was wondering if there was any advantage in learning the 3rd empty hand form before learning the dummy form or if there was any advantage the other way around??

Neil

[Dan]

Haha - I know what u mean about it being noisy, when i was at uni i had the clubs dummy in my room for nearly a year b4 we got storage and i also had a wall bag i and i dont think the people upstairs appriciated it.

As for your question about the order of the forms, It is something i have thought about b4. My (un backed) conclusion was taht it shouldn't matter much. obviously you should learn biu gee stepping b4 learing the dummy, but other than that if you learn to do the technique in the dummy or the air first it shouldn't matter too mcuh so long as you learn them both eventually. Anyone else got any ideas?

[Togo]

Well from what i've read up on wing chun through some books and various sources on the net, the dummy form would traditionally be taught either along with, or after Chum Kui, and the third form would traditionally be held back for closed door students, and sometimes as a further incentive to keep training in the system. However with that being said i don't know bugger all about the second or third forms, or really the wooden dummy form for that matter.

I'm pretty sure grandmaster Kwok might have said something about teaching the dummy form somewhere along with learning Chum Kui, but i'm not sure at what point. This would lead me to beleive that the dummy is taught from a certain point in learning Chum Kui and is finished being taught by the time the student reaches the either the end of or beiginning of Bui Jee ? Anyone's Thoughts ?

The other point i'd like to add in is that in my grading booklet the wooden dummy assessment is listed under the black sash 1 section.

[superfoot]

Il ask sifu tomorrow for you all!

[Tom]

Board breaking is just for showing off (not that it's particularly hard to do), but it is satisfying as hell...

As for the dummy, I still need to perfect (well, get better at) Chum Kiu, but after that I always thought the next logical step would be learning the dummy form. You start working on application of things you already know with the Dummy (as well as a few new techniques), which is totally vital to your learning. There's a big difference between knowing the techniques and applying them, and I think that's where the dummy comes in. I always thought third form was developing your application, as opposed to your knowledge of techniques, and you learn that application from the dummy.

[superfoot]

I agree that after chum kiu the dummy is the next logical step, however like dan i think it doesnt really matter how early you see or train any of the forms. You may be best off waiting for your instructor to tell you when your ready.

For me dummy aids greatly with footwork and training of power, it also helps correct your form without you even realising it. However i think some people should get out of the habit of treating the dummy form just as a 'kata', with the sole aim of remembering the moves, one needs to know the applications of the techniques so you can visualise the dummy as an opponent and so you can imagine the strike your opponent is doing and then use the appropriate response. It is a fantastic bit of equipment and you should have a play on one as early as you can, as it is great for learning the fighting distance at which wing chun operates. It also allows you to play around and think of new techniques.

My understanding of third form is that it is for developing optimal power to your strikes, combining all of the power from your 'horse', stance, hips, kitchen, kitchen sink etc. It is also has emergency techniques for when youv made a mistake and allows correction through some techniques that may even seem contradictory to some of the principles of wing chun, in this way i find it also teaches you not to be a slave to the system. There are of course many other lessons to be learnt from the form but for me these are the main ones. The form needs to be practiced 100s if not 1000s of times to perfect the energies! (However, non perfect can still break faces.)

[Togo]

"(However, non perfect can still break faces.)"

I lol'd at that one ;D

Another way of looking at it is that no matter what style you study or how good your technique is, a punch in the face is a punch in the face at the end of the day and it still hurts like F**K

I was thinking of getting a dummy as soon as i've progressed to a level where i can use one, i think getting one before this would do more harm than good as i've not been shown how to use it properly and can imagine it would only bugger up my understanding of posture, stance, sensitivity and lord knows what else. On top of that theres already enough things i can't do properly without adding to the list.

Some of them do look really nice but "Gosh Golly" they aren't cheap. Theres also a few different variations such as spring loaded ones which turn, as well as free standing ones, i've also seen the "martial arm". I don't even know what to say about that piece of...equipment.

I was thinking of saving up for one and hopefully by the time i'm ready to use one i'd have enough money, also because my room is kinda small with all the rest of my exercise crap i was thinking of maybe getting a free standing one. Anyone think this is a good/bad idea ? Is there a whole lot of difference in the benefits i'd be getting from say a mounted dummy ?

[Dan]

free standing is ok, just dont buy anything from woodendummy.co.uk as the quality is shokingly bad, (good design) they fall apart from the word g... oh i didn't even finish

[Togo]

Cheers, I'll bear that in mind. On that note, is there any paticular wood which is better than the others in temrs of durability and strength ? I've noticed the main types seem to be wood and oak.

Also has anyone tried breaking anything else than wood ? there's some, literally jaw dropping video's of james sinclair on his site in the video's section punching through several paving slabs and god knows what else, also his speed breaks are some of the best i've seen in any demo or martial art.

Do you reckon that type of thing would have negative effects on your health later on though ? I mean it cannot be good for your knuckles abusing them like that

[Dan]

your knuckles can take loadsa punishment, sure they may end up unshapely and in later years with artritus but most old people get that anyway.

as for dummys hard wood is best, the better quality the more you will pay but the stronger it is - oak is good coz its strong but cheapish for hard wood

[tjwingchun]

togo said:

Cheers, I'll bear that in mind. On that note, is there any paticular wood which is better than the others in temrs of durability and strength ? I've noticed the main types seem to be wood and oak.

If you can get your hands on it, the trunk of most fruit trees are great, especially cherry. I am busy working on an almond tree at the minute

togo said:

Also has anyone tried breaking anything else than wood ? there's some, literally jaw dropping video's of james sinclair on his site in the video's section punching through several paving slabs and god knows what else, also his speed breaks are some of the best i've seen in any demo or martial art.

Brick(don´t do wet ones they hurt), tiles(tooooo easy), glass(again not recommended), but remember there are different types of what looks like concrete, also bricks and paving slabs are brittle and though very strong susceptible to shock hence why when doing more than one they are separated so only breaking one at a time, faces (but you have to be careful not to get arrested pmsl). I also break 2 chopsticks in my throat and the occassional pool cue by getting them pushed in, just for fun of course. lmao

togo said:

Do you reckon that type of thing would have negative effects on your health later on though ? I mean it cannot be good for your knuckles abusing them like that

I used to do many demo´s and loads of wood breaking, for Sifu´s Chinese New year demo in Leicester Square I would break 3 inch boards with my elbow, starting with my wrist on the first board so a 9" elbow technique rather than an inch punch.

As far as health issues are concerned, although my knuckles are somewhat enlarged on my right hand I have never broken any of them, I have trouble with my wrists and elbows but not sure if that is breaking related.

Most of the damage to my knuckles in recent years came from punching brick walls like a daft bar-steward, such is life. ;D