Thai Boxers

[Togo]

evening Folks, Not been on in a while so figured i'd swing by and say hi.

Anyways enough with the small talk. On friday night me and a few mates decided to do some training in my mate's back garden for a couple of hours. I used to study tae kwon do, boxing for a while and other bits and pieces as i went along, also muay thai for about 6-8 months before taking wing chun. My mates have mostly studied boxing/muay thai and are pretty solid fighters, and as usual i got my ass handed to me due to a lack of physical fitness and just sucking in general.

However the one thing which kinda hurt after a while (despite supposed "light" contact) was the old thai kicks. In muay thai we where taught to block kicks with our shins which frankly is one of the reasons i quit. It F*&cks your shins It has to be said though that out of all the arts i've studied so far muay thai has been the most devastating in terms of power and speed, and probably the easiest to pick up.

The point i'm getting to here (sorry for the tangent like post) is the thai roundhouse kicks. Especially the low ones. After a good solid shin to the thigh i was more than shaky on my feet, and time after time i'd either catch one on the leg or get dead arms trying to protect my ribs. I wasn't really using wing chun due to my lack of ability in the style except for the odd finger strike to the throat to get out of a clinch, but i was wondering how wing chun holds up against thai kicks ?

i've been shown a few checks and jams with the sole of my foot to stop the low kicks or jam them before they have time to pick up but honestly speaking the kicks where waaay to fast for me to check them.

I'm also wondering how wing chun would stop a proper thai kick to say the ribs. I presume there's techniques later in the syllabus which deal with this ? My other point is if so, how effective are they ? I've seen and felt some proper thai roundhouse kicks and with the exception on catching them i either end up with a severely dead arm or some bruised ribs, The other problem isn't just a kick, they're thrown in rapid succession and all the while i have jabs and crosses being thrown at me...

Your thoughts ?

[superfoot]

Lots of issues here, but il just give my views on some of the interesting points.

Sparring; its good that you spar and stuff, as you often here lots of wing chun practioners refusing to spar because it is far too d34dly to use. Of course some techniques you cant use because of equipment or for safety reasons, however it is always good imo to train with other styles so you can train your reactions vs them. It is unrealistic because in most lessons you may not have the depth of expertise in other arts within your club so you will end up practicing kick defences against bad kickers, takedown defences against bad wrestlers and so on (luckily at the uni we have good kickers and grapplers to train against). If you are having difficulty with some techniques perhaps you could jus train with your friends and share ideas and try to work out what works, or get them to start off slow and build it up.

Leg kicks are very useful attacks, powerful, fast and safe to use (just like the "wing chun" stamps). I think it is all a question of range, and thus footwork in how to deal with such kicks (i think it is far easier to "block" something by just not being there). If you stand within kicking range, and his offense is faster than your defense, you will get kicked all day. Either step out of that range, or step in past the range so he can no longer use such kicks. Learn the ranges, learn where you are safe from leg kicks and be there. With your wing chun you either want to be in their face, at an "in-fighting"/chi sao distance or at a range where they have to commit to come to you, that is why sparring is important, so you can learn how to apply chum kiu, and you can learn how to seek that bridge and find that contact. You cannot afford to be indecisive, when you decide to go, just go. Dictate the fight and dominate the fighting distance that you know. Dont be afraid to go in, realise that is where you are safest, in the range that you train in, he will be scared when you are there.
(note: without ego i can say that i am a good kicker, which hopefully adds weight to my advice.)

However dont lose heart (things are always a lot more difficult to deal with when you dont know they are coming!), it sounds like good practice as they are better fighters than you, which means you can only learn.

Do you guys train bare knuckle?

[rosenrot]

I can sympathise with you Togo as I too am a bit slow with checking thai kicks, but if you're fighting against guys who are good at this discipline, don't be disheartened as they are bound to be good with low-kicks.

From my experience (MMA) I would suggest being more aggressive as to get caught by kicks you must be fighting on the outside. If I'm getting out-kicked my only option is to be as in-their-face as possible, get past the kicking range and throw plenty of punches or go for clinch. This is easier said than done of course, but like Ad said above, the more hesitant you are the more you'll get caught. Obviously if the guys you are fighting are also good at close-range too you will struggle, but this is all the more reason to train with good people, so that you can learn to counter their style.

Also, don't be preoccupied with trying Wing Chun techniques, just use whatever you feel comfortable with in that particular instance.

Its good to get conditioned against these low-kicks though since they will subsequently become less painful. After one of you sparring sessions get your friends to kick your thighs and shins a lot. Yes its painful, but will pay of in the long run (although from personal experience I know this isn't a great comfort at the time:))!

Sorry if any of this states the obvious or is patronising: if so please ignore!

[Togo]

No not at all, it would be pig ignorant of me to ask for advice and then spit it back in your face. I do have to disagree with the conditioning idea however, i tried this before and to be honest i felt it did more harm than good, not only was it not really working but it was also hindering my ability to continue training, instead of battering my legs i just try to man up, grow a pair and take the hits. The conditioning the thai pro boxers endure must pay off however as i cringe just watching them smash their shins together whilst they don't even blink...

Thanks for the input though lads, always appreciated. I felt my problem wasn't being to hesitant, just rather a choice of being outside and moving out of range, or trying to close the gap and getting pummeled with elbows and knees in the process lol ;D To answer the question, no we don't train bare knuckle, boxing gloves/mma gloves usually unless we're just fucking about.

So are there actually any techniques later in the syllabus that anyone can tell me of that could help with the mid level kicks, and hopefully ones that don't deaden my arms and can actually stop the kick in time, not that i'm asking for an explanantion or anything just hoping there's some solution. Another question for my sifu to be honest but i'm curious.

[superfoot]

ye theres lots of different techniques that you can try, you should try and find the one that works best for you.

Here are few possible techniques you could use:

-Leg raise, as you see him kick raise your leg and kick him in the groin, if he uses right, kick with your left.

- 45 step to the opposite way the kick is comin from and punch/strike. So if he is kicking with his right, step to your right at a 45 degree angle and use either a left punch to his face or a strike to the throat, if he is covered up jus use the stike as a shove to effect his balance and nullify his kick.

-you mentioned you did some tkd before, a back kick / jump back kick is a useful counter (if you have they good)

You can do a lot more with higher kicks, but against low ones you should either be aiming to use your legs to block him or kick his supporting leg out, or you should be using footwork to get out the way and land a strike before his kick comes. Obviously the timing is difficult and requires practice.

[Dan]

one i like for a rib kick is (if he say kicks with his right leg) drop your left arm into low Gan Sao (like in first form after the Tan Sao) beside your body and step right in with a punch using your right. you want to keep your Gan Close to your body and try and catch his kick above the knee where there is less power (or you Gan sao will get bashed hard!). switching to a side stance will help with this technique but it is all about timing and making sure your punching hand goes in hard and makes him think shit im gonna get hit in the face.

for higher kick use Gum Sao to the top of the thigh of your attacker (hard) like at the end of Chum Kiu to deflect their kick and hurt their thigh. again 45 step is useful and if you block to low on their leg with your gum sao (which is basiclly just a palm strike) you will bust your hand good- - but keep practicing.

as stated above just getting in is a good idea, and dont be afraid to go in hard with strikes. because if the rib kick does hit you on the way in so long as you hit hard and fast and repeatedly they wont be willing to do that trade of again, (but of course they will then change there technique so they cover when kicking, at which point you will change your technique to enter with Pak Saos and strikes at which point they will do something else and you all end up better fighters)

[Tom]

Not much to add here, except to agree with the points made. Closing the distance seems the obvious answer to me, but as you said yourself, you're still not properly comfortable with using Wing Chun. Practice, practice, practice, and then go kick their asses.

Hey, that rhymed. Sort of.

We have a pretty good video of Sifu doing some kick defence against Ad (Superfoot). I tried to find it on youtube but I don't thik it's there.

Dan, can you stick it up on youtube?

[Dan]

i could do when my internet at home works but i cant use the work computers to do it

[Togo]

Cheers for the helpful replies, some good advice here

I asked my sifu tonight and he showed me some different variations of defense.

Firstly the one i was most awed by: as i swung a low kick at his thigh he simply lifted his leg like as if he was blocking it like a thai boxer, but instead of cracking our shns together he turned his foot outwards and relaxed his leg which sort of absorbed the force of the blow leaving him unharmed and me with a bit of a sore shin...this probably isn't the best explanation in the world but the point is it worked, and it worked well against even my hardest kicks

The second variation was as i lifted my kicking leg he landed a gentle but firm punch on my chest which pretty much ended that scenario.

The other one which other helpful folk have put in, was simply to step 45 and twat me one as above both dodging the kick and closing the gap.

The final variation was probably the most painful, as i lifted my kickingleg up to supposedly destroy his leg, i instead found my supporting leg being kicked from underneath me at the knee...This also stunned me for a second as i couldn't quite process how my D34dly kick had landed me off balance and with a sore knee

With a lot of practice i doubt low thai kicks are going to be too bothersome from now on. I actually had to laugh at the simplicity of the techniques however

[Tom]

togo said:

The final variation was probably the most painful, as i lifted my kicking leg up to supposedly destroy his leg, i instead found my supporting leg being kicked from underneath me at the knee...This also stunned me for a second as i couldn't quite process how my D34dly kick had landed me off balance and with a sore knee

With a lot of practice i doubt low thai kicks are going to be too bothersome from now on. I actually had to laugh at the simplicity of the techniques however

I love that one

You'd be amazed how often in Wing Chun the most effective answer is the simplest. That was what "sold" Wing Chun to me in the first place, after trying a few very basic techniques, seeing how well they worked, and then thinking "why haven't I already thought of that?"

It's like the Occam's Razor of the martial arts.

[superfoot]

careful using techniques like that when you are just sparring or mucking about with your mates

[Dan]

make sure it works when they guy knows what he is doing and is trying to take your legs of... i think is what Ad means??? clarify Ad??

[Togo]

Yeah i wasn't planning to try and break anyones knee joints or anything lol

I have to agree with you on the simplicity thing Tom, i reckon you don't think of using a lot of the techniques because of that reason. They're simple so you probably reckon they wouldn't work. By the way i checked out your website at the bottom of your post, and i have to say in all honesty it was kick ass, i loved your thing about the emo kids especially. I'd check it out if you haven't done so already folks.



Does anyone happen to know the name of the first leg technique i described ? probably not seeing as my description was vague and i couldn't show you it, i think my instructor said it worked like a bong sau ? but with your shin i should have asked at the time but it slipped my mind. Thanks for the input by the way

[rosenrot]

"careful using techniques like that when you are just sparring or mucking about with your mates" - Ad

They're Scottish, they don't feel pain!

[superfoot]

ye its a "bong kick", its a side kick to the standing leg, whilst covering the opponents kicking leg with your shin, although it sounds like it would hurt, the aim is to take out their supporting leg before their kicks gets to you, thus disolving most of the power. It is called the bong kick cos the leg is in the same kinda shape as the bong sau (i would assume).

It is important to practice your kicking speed, as although its easy to use such a kick when you know its coming/or the guy is slow, against a good fighter its all about speed. And despite a straight line being faster, a curved line can be fast too!