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Post by rosenrot on Jan 23, 2008 0:46:23 GMT
I was talking to Jon and Ad earlier about the importance of maintaining a strong position on the ground and that this can render even eye gouges ineffective. This video shows a no rules fight with apparent Kung Fu v. BJJ. You can see that while the dude in black attempts eye gouges and hair pulling they are of little consequence as the guy on top has good enough control to free his hands to defend these attacks. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjux_y5Xp64&feature=relatedThis shows perhaps that it is important to know at least escapes from ground positions as the trusty eye gouge won't always work. Its worth noting that the guy on top is a little bigger than his opponent, but I don't think this makes a huge difference to the end result. Also whether the guy in black is trained in Kung Fu or not is inconsequential: he could be anyone from a striking background. |
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Post by chisauking on Jan 23, 2008 2:05:01 GMT
I don't mean to 'pick' on you, rosenrot, but it's 'crystal' clear to any good fighter that the 'sacrifical lamb' -- the so-called kungfu fighter -- isn't a kungfu fighter at all.
How do we know that? Easy: look at his timing. He has none. Look at his 'bridging'. There was none. The fight was a forgone conclusion, and you know it!
Please, I would have thought you uni kids would be savy enough to see through that gullible shit. If the BJJ people really wanted to challenge genuine opponents, why don't they go round to Boztepe's, Gary Lam, Kan Wah Chit's, etc., etc, kwoons? Those guys was known to take on all 'challengers' in their prime.
Oh, I know! Maybe it's the fact that they would have put their 'health' on the line by taking on those aggressive fighters!
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Post by rosenrot on Jan 23, 2008 2:55:11 GMT
"the so-called kungfu fighter -- isn't a kungfu fighter at all." - Chisauking
You're missing the point. What I was trying to say was that often those who haven't trained in ground fighting insist that restraints won't work because of the possibility of eye gouging and other non-sport techniques. However, I think this illustrates quite well that if the grappler has a strong position and is skilled at controlling his opponent this will severely limit the effectiveness of such attacks.
The Gracie challenge (to any martial artist) has existed since the 1920s, so I wouldn't consider BJJ guys to be dodging anyone.
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Post by chisauking on Jan 23, 2008 22:51:15 GMT
rosenrot: many techniques may or may not work in real life, but to try and prove a point by using such an unworthy opponent is simply unconvincing. When you are facing a 'bum', you can make anything work....even a triple somersualt, double backward spin and then punch in the face. Also, the 'grappler' was extremely strong and muscular (could be streroids), and he snapped the guy's arm for the hell of it.
Regarding the Gracie challenges: Just like modern day boxing, all the fights (or, fighters, I should say), are 'carried'. All the best boxers never fight each other until the end of their career span (for obvious financial reasons). In the same way, the Gracies only accept 'bum' fights. They have NEVER accepted decent fighters. For example, Boztepe issued a challenge to one of the Gracies in Inside Kungfu. The fight was to be no rules\limits, but the Garcies would only accept the challenge with 'rules'. Further more, if the Gracies really wanted to prove superiority of their art, they know who the best fighters are in the world. Funny, they never 'knocked' on the doors of those fighters.
Hummmm, maybe they had sense, after all. Better to take the money and keep your mouth shut.
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Post by rosenrot on Jan 24, 2008 1:06:27 GMT
I wouldn't say the guy was definitely a bum. Having seen many videos with hopeless kung fu practitioners I've come to expect fairly low standards. As for the wrestler, he's not that big or muscular, just athletic. To suggest a guy with that physique is on steroids is pathetic. Guys who test positive for steroids in professional sports usually are either a lot more toned/defined or bulkier than the guy in this video. Your hero Emin Boztepe is bulkier than this guy, are you going to accuse him of being on steroids too?
He doesn't snap the arm either. The submission he uses is a key-lock (or Americana) which places stress on the shoulder joint and will tear ligaments and tendons if the opponent doesn't tap in time. It isn't applied maliciously here, once the wrestler takes the grip he just turns his arms quickly and the guy underneath soon taps. Also since the opponent was trying to gauge his eyes there's no reason to apply the submission lightly.
I'll admit its difficult to find a list of the people the Gracies have fought, but you can find Royce's MMA record. As I mentioned in another post, in UFCs 1-11 there were no rules. This didn't stop Royce going undefeated, an incredible feat considering along the way he beat Ken Shamrock (outweighed Royce by 40lbs) and Dan Severn (outweiged Royce by 70lbs). Both Shamrock and Severn were near their prime at this point and I would have put money on them beating just about anyone.
"Boztepe issued a challenge to one of the Gracies in Inside Kungfu."
I can't believe you criticise me for using this video, stating it is a biased set-up, when your information apparently proving the Gracies are scared of Boztepe comes from a KUNG FU magazine! Hmmmm....whose side are they going to be on?
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Post by chisauking on Jan 24, 2008 11:13:06 GMT
rose sez: I wouldn't say the guy was definitely a bum. Having seen many videos with hopeless kung fu practitioners I've come to expect fairly low standards.
csk: You said it yourself: very low standards.
rose: As for the wrestler, he's not that big or muscular, just athletic. To suggest a guy with that physique is on steroids is pathetic. Guys who test positive for steroids in professional sports usually are either a lot more toned/defined or bulkier than the guy in this video.
csk: I said: could be. The point being, he was definately stronger than his opponent.
rose:Your hero Emin Boztepe is bulkier than this guy, are you going to accuse him of being on steroids too?
csk: Bozo isn't my hero. But you can't deny the facts: he was one of the most agressive during that time; he loved fighting; he represented wt; he wasn't shy on taking fights.
rose:He doesn't snap the arm either. The submission he uses is a key-lock (or Americana) which places stress on the shoulder joint and will tear ligaments and tendons if the opponent doesn't tap in time. It isn't applied maliciously here, once the wrestler takes the grip he just turns his arms quickly and the guy underneath soon taps. Also since the opponent was trying to gauge his eyes there's no reason to apply the submission lightly.
csk: The point was, there was no need to snap the guy's tendon(you can actually hear a very lound crack). He was controlling the position very easy.
rose:I'll admit its difficult to find a list of the people the Gracies have fought, but you can find Royce's MMA record. As I mentioned in another post, in UFCs 1-11 there were no rules. This didn't stop Royce going undefeated, an incredible feat considering along the way he beat Ken Shamrock (outweighed Royce by 40lbs) and Dan Severn (outweiged Royce by 70lbs). Both Shamrock and Severn were near their prime at this point and I would have put money on them beating just about anyone.
csk: Royce etc, may have been great fighters. But, since they never fought for real(no rules or limits) or taken on anyone meaningful(other than people from the same game) we will never know. If you don't believe me that sport and realaity is different, go and test yourself. If you want me to arrange it for you, let me know. See if your techniques work when people are really trying to kick your face to pulp, wearing hard boots( as oppose to being bare-footed).
"Boztepe issued a challenge to one of the Gracies in Inside Kungfu."
rose:I can't believe you criticise me for using this video, stating it is a biased set-up, when your information apparently proving the Gracies are scared of Boztepe comes from a KUNG FU magazine! Hmmmm....whose side are they going to be on?
csk: during that time, everybody was making 'challenges' to promote themelves.....it got to a point where challenges couldn't be taken seriously. The challenge to the gracies was issued through IKF in an attemp to validate the challenge, and gene (the publisher) was to act as the intermediatary. Otherwise, both parties could refute any points they wanted. BTW, the name of the magazine was Insidekungfu, but they are impartial since they covered all martial arts, not just Chinese martial arts.
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Post by rosenrot on Jan 24, 2008 11:33:12 GMT
"But, since they never fought for real(no rules or limits)" - Chisauking
As I ave said at least twice before: IN THE EARLY UFC COMPETITIONS THERE WERE NO RULES! This is why it was banned in most states of America and had to transform into the modern sport to stay alive.
"other than people from the same game" - Chisauking
Shamrock was a shoot-fighter, Severn a wrestler, while other combatants in the the first UFCs were kickboxers, Savateurs, boxers and some Ninjutsu guys apparently. I don't see how any of these are the "same game" as BJJ.
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Post by Tom on Jan 24, 2008 20:39:32 GMT
If you don't believe me that sport and realaity is different, go and test yourself. If you want me to arrange it for you, let me know. Man, you're full of shit. |
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Post by rosenrot on Jan 24, 2008 20:56:23 GMT
"If you don't believe me that sport and realaity is different, go and test yourself. If you want me to arrange it for you, let me know." - Chisauking
'Reality' is someone sitting on your chest and punching you in the face. Believe me I've been there and just in training its far scarier than getting kicked in the nuts or having someone poke me in the eye (I've been there too). Chokes are also up there when it comes to scary: when you realise there's absolutely nothing you can do except hope the guy will let go before you die.
Give me a scrap with someone with heavy boots any day...
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Post by Tom on Jan 24, 2008 21:57:14 GMT
'Reality' is someone sitting on your chest and punching you in the face. Yep. Or coming up behind you, pulling you to the ground and kicking you in the face (which has happened to me in the past). Sometimes it's not even a fight. |
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kizz0
Intermediate Member
Posts: 53
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Post by kizz0 on Jan 28, 2008 1:53:04 GMT
Here's another interesting fight: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStIEarly Royce Gracie fight vs A 5 animals kung fu expert named "Jason Delucia" who apparently does ok in the MMA world. This is a later fight they had: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkd8_BiBu_URoyce won both of these fights which shows the importance of learning good groundwork incase you end up on the floor. Delucia picks up submission wrestling/grappling and actually uses in a fight to win, see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9MGOlLtl3wprobably not up to scratch to modern mma but interesting none-the less! |
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Post by rosenrot on Jan 28, 2008 2:22:55 GMT
I recognised the name Jason Delucia, guess who beat him three times in Pancrase? Thats right: EL GUAPO!!! This is Bas narrating a clip of one of his fights with Delucia, finished with some sweet liver shots. As the title of the video says: you don't fuck with Bas Rutten... youtube.com/watch?v=2A9SjPhC0pM |
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Post by superfoot on Jan 28, 2008 12:16:59 GMT
i love bas
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Post by superfoot on Jan 28, 2008 12:26:46 GMT
did BIG john mccarthy ever fight?
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Post by rosenrot on Jan 28, 2008 14:19:09 GMT
BIG John hasn't fought I don't think. He was interested in fighting in one of the early UFCs, but since the guys who were organising the event knew him, they suggested he be referee instead. He's a qualified BJJ instructor under the Gracies and teaches self-defence to the LAPD of whom he is/was a member.
I don't think he'd have to fight as the man's presence would simply wilt his opponents before anyone started throwing leather.
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