Anyone here do Jiu-Jitsu?

[thecrowrains]

I have several coworkers who swear by the effectiveness of grappling, and many of them tell me that Wing Chun would be rendered ineffective against a well trained JiuJitsu practitioner.

Anyone here disagree with their opinion?

I personally have never had to go up against a grappler in any classroom situation, but it appears effective on dvd.

peace,
Eric B.

[Dan]

I have trained with a guy who does ju-jitsu and although i found it an effective martial art it does not compare in its effectiveness against wing chun. Although i am bias being primarilly a wing chun practitionar, i really do think that wing chun is to deverstating standing up for ju-jitsu to cope with in general. however ju-jitsu does have some excellent techniques, like locks and throws wich complement the wing chun system quite well.

then there is ground fighting and grappeling, although ju-jitsu is the best at these disaplins, all the ju-jitsu practitionars i have trainned with neglect notions of 'dirty play' when fighting. I.e. if in a street fight, grappaling on the ground there are no rules which ju-jitsu is offten bound by. any form or grappaling will always result in groin attacks and eye and throat strikes in my oppinion, and these will win the fight. because when trainning with ju-jitsu fighters practising locks of grappaling its is offten the easy option to attack the neck or groin which would ultimatly win the fight, however on their own terms ju-jitsu fighters are very effective.

Also their fighting standing up can apply priciples ssimalar to wing chun like no force on force blocking.

therefore i think standing up ju-jitsu has no chance and if on the ground ju-jitsu will win if their opponent doesn't 'cheat' and break the rules that would goven sport fighting but not street fighting.

Gosh that was a bit long and incoherant hope it helps thou, and if anyone gets the chance ju-jitsu is one of the few martial arts other than wing chun i would recomend.

[superfoot]

carlson gracie the world famous ju-jitsu guy did a few seminars with master kwok and said something along the lines of master kwoks wing chun (as there is a lot of bad wing chun being taught out there) but Master Kwoks is the best standing martial art hes ever seen, and he has seen alot of martial arts.

Just remember that a grappler has to get you to the floor first to be able to hurt you; and your wing chun, if its any good, wont allow him to get through to grab or strike you anyway, and youd have hit him 10times in the head before hes done naything. Its like when you ask sifu of how to get out of random holds and stuff, a lot of the time he may answer with i wouldnt let you get there, which is a very valid point.

I have very little knowledge of ju jitsu though, so sorry if iv got it all wrong and offended any practicioners

[thecrowrains]

Thanks to the three replies. I personally don't know JiuJitsu, although I've heard others address it's effectiveness. The point that they are only effective on the ground is a good point.

I noticed that they need to bring one to the ground FIRST, before they do their dirty work. (*this was while viewing a JJitsu dvd).

Their ''Clinch" is where that all begins: they feint a punch or kick or even a step towards a deceptive direction. This would seem to be "how" JiuJitsu technique is initiated. Without this ''Clinch", they might have trouble doing JiuJitsu. I like your point Dan that Wing Chun's strikes, the NON-sport strikes, would end the fight in mere seconds = groin and eye strikes, etc.

thanks for the feedback. I personally believe in Wing Chun more, but respect JJitsu purely for their ground tactics.

peace.

[Tom]

Theres no doubt that Jiu Jitsu is an effective form of fighting, but in terms of which is the better discipline, well I'd say it entirely comes down to the situtation you find yourself in. If someone threw a straight punch at me in the street, I know which side of the fence I'd fall on, but at the same time if someone managed to get me on the ground, which is entirely possible, I'd like to know some jiu jitsu stuff to throw in there.

Fact is, neither is better than the other really, its all down to circumstance. We often say Wing Chun doesn't work when you apply rules to it. I guess the same could be said for Jiu Jitsu, in that you take away rules and sportsmanlike conduct, and it won't fare as well against someone who is willing to kick you ib the neck and gouge your eyes...

[Eric Breiby]

One point while watching this JiuJitsu DVD: all the losing guys that fought the Gracies in this DVD all executed boxing or karate style punches. Not one executed a correct Wing Chun punch. Food for thought, considering the effectiveness of the Straight Chain Punch of our Wing Chun!!!
thanks,
Eric B.

[Black belt Goshin ju jitsu]

Ok, heres what you need to know about ju jitsu

Its an all round martial art that believes in perfecting martial arts through practicals, not through katas which most kung fu types use

It has several disciplines
-Throws/sweeps
-punches/kicksetc
-grappling
-sparring
-pressure point exploitation
-weapon techniques
-footwork and general to specialised stances
-groundwork
-attacking people when you are on the ground
-strangles and chokes
-locks (all parts of body)
-pinning
-basic and advanced katas (low emphesis)
-blocking
-weapon disarming

As you can see, it involves virtually everything, and the first thing i have to teach people who partake in other martial arts is that they need to have a plan for every eventuality, because if you are in a real fight, you have no idea what you will be up against. I would advise that you go up against a ju jitsu artist if you wish to see your own weaknesses and how they can be exploited. When you start patching up these weaknesses, you are already doing ju jitsu

Any questions, email me at [e-mail]

Enjoy

[Dan]

Cool thanx for that i appreciate your coments and veiws.

So is it that Goshin Ju-jitsu is like Jeet kune do in it approch and philosophy in the sense that you just take anything that works and add it to the system, or was the system devised to encoperate all of that? If so when and by who?

Are u a student at the uni or did you just stumble across us on the net?

[black belt goshin ju jitsu]

Ju jitsu is very, very old. There are arguments that it was one of the first martial arts, but its name has kept changing (dunno about that) but has definately been around for as long as judo.
As for the philosophy, its simple. You cannot know what your enemy is going to use against you, so learn everything, but learn to use it practically. There are set rules as to what you can/cannot use (i know about 30 illegal throws for instance), but you are encouraged to experiment a little bit, as some throws need to be subtley changed if your throwing a small, heavy bloke (punches rarely need to be changed, just your aim)
And no, i dont go to your uni, but know some one who does, which is how i got here
And those grappling comments, 1) i can fight equally well standing as on the ground; 2) it really works on street fighting as i have been the attempted victim a good few times; 3) it only takes me gripping one arm to throw you. can you really guarentee that i wont manage that? 4) my understanding of win chung is mostly a kata based system. Where exactly will you hit them in real life? i can knock someone out with minimum effort because i can see where im aiming at (and have done it, though its is amasingly frightening when they come to). Collateral damage is all that would be applied. Try causing it unconscious

[Dan]

Wing Chun has no katas as such, it has 3 empty hand forms an dummy form and then 2 weapons forms. However the forms are just a referance for all the techniques, i.e. onece the forms have been lernt, the techniques are know and then have to be understood and applied and that is the hard part.

there are soooo many bad wing chun schools out there that tech all sorts of dubious stuff so if you look at wing chun you will offten get a rather lame and offten embarising picture. However good wing chun is an exceptionally deverstating martial art, a few caracteristics are that it use's deflection to block [rather than force on force 'hard' blocks] this enables defence against people of all size. wing chun has a tight defence and very quick punches, 'chain punching can perfom up to 7 or 8 punches a second, posibly more but to ensure power about 5 a second is good. wing chuns kicks tend to be low level to below the waist as they are hard to block and dont leave the practitionar off balance. wing chun has no rules so will employ eye gauges as seen in the third form [driving the thumb into the eye socket and then dropping it down - not pleasant but if u gotta use it] also groin kicks and small joint manipulation. it has many attacks that can be used against the throat for quick knock out. because every technique has been thought through they will work in all situations regardless of size or streangth making it an exeptionally effective martial art that is offten tought to the special forces across the world due to its practical effectiveness.

[Chris]

I think Wing Chun is flexible enough in its approach to fighting, like dan says the forms are just references not rules because in wing chun there are no rules, if he is goin to hurt you then hurt him back, the whole point of practisin the forms over and over is so every reaction has correct form and postion anyway we dont think 'ok he's got my on the floor so il use jujitsu position number 31' too slow! just react and hit him, poke him, break him, kick him it doesnt matter just hurt him. in terms of defence? No two arms or legs can be present on the same line at the same time, its as simple as that.

the fact that jujitsu has a move for every possible situation is bad in my oppinion this means it takes forever to learn and makes it more likely that a practioner will freeze up in the conflict, it also limits the amount of creativity you can use when learning (makes it a bit boreing).

the fact that all its practical emphasis lies in sparring is another bad point, sparring (especially for begginers) makes you alot more tense because anything goes and its likley your opponent will use no control so this promotes rolling around and scrapping like children as opposed to the precise deadly strikes of Wing Chun which are perfected in the much more controled dignified ^^ Chi Sau.

the fact is speed and efficency are tought from the beggining in Wing Chun is excellent it means after only very few lessons, confidence in ones ability to put up a fight when attacked is increased ten fold.

Basically those who seek a system which has a textbook for every single combat position ever realy miss the piont alltogether, 'you gotta flow like water' so to speak.

and before you even start with the ground fighting argument, a practioner who has trained dilligently will have wrists strong enough and a stance solid enough to be almost immovable, and besides were not goin to wrestle with you you do all the work for us, we jus borrow. thepiont is we probably will have hit you 3 times before you get chance to get the legs, an even then you probably got kick in the head doin it.

anyways theres no point comin on here telling us which art is best an all that rubbish, the fact is all styles had a least one great hero or master so all have there benifits and logic, the trick is to look for the similaritys not the differences. this way you learn to be a whole.

Chris

[Chris]

a counter to to the misunderstanding of our system. i dont want to argue because like i said and always say 'look for the similaritys NOT differences' we can manipulate our techniques to whatever the situation calls for as should any practitioner of any art or style. only those who aim to learn more and more to be protected with their knowledge will fall when they realise fighting aint as easy as it was in class. good fighters know better.

[thecrowrains]

Everyone:
lots of healthy discussion on this topic. I only posed this question on this post, to read what other WC students had to say about Jiu Jitsu.

I hope it didn't create any arguments. I personally appreciate varying opinions on the matter: helps to learn a broad perspective.

I have noticed a strong prevalence towards the grappling arts, and its success in that arena. Most notably the the UFC tournaments. > www.ufc.com

Recently Royce Gracie lost to Matt Hughes, a JiuJitsu vs. Mixed Martial artist.

As a student (new) of Wing Chun, I hope to be able to defend against a grappler. The ABOVE posts seem to lend INSIGHT.

great! thank you,
Eric Breiby

[Dan]

everyone thinks there own martial art it best, all we can do is discuss it and i find it is usefull.

if i thought there was a more effective martial art around i would do it, that is the same for everyone. It is the individual that makes the martial artist there are plenty of crap wing chun practitioners and pleanty of crap ju-jitsu guys, a system is a theory and debate about it should always be healthy.

so everyone practice hard at what it is that makes you tick

[superfoot]

Just how people support different football teams, people support different martial arts. I personally feel people should care little about what others think about what one does, not just in martial arts but in life too. Practice martial arts for YOURSELF.
I practice various martial arts becuase I WANT to and because I ENJOY them and because I am aiming for personal growth. I believe kung fu and martial arts are more than just a physical thing; they are at once cultural and psychological, allowing one to develop the psyche and soma separetly and simultaneously.
If you only want to study martial arts so you can get a boner over how hard you are and over how great you are thats cool. I will always continue with my (real undiluted) Wing Chun because I know what it means to me(imo best in-fighting system); regardless of how any external parties think about it. Just how for example im sure black belt goshin ju jitsu dude will continue with his despite any ignorant comments from myself.
I think the majority of these 'arguments' stem from the fact that we all really like our particular preference of martial art and thus want otehrs to get the enjoyment out of it that we do. So we tend to take a 'what are you doing?!' STUDY X, like i do!' approach. The world would be a much duller place if everybody studied the same system...

Grandmaster ^Carlson^ Gracie (brazillian ju jitsu) and Grandmaster Samuel Kwok (Wing Chun) were both great friends, so why dont we follow in their stead and all get along. KEKE

note; imo = in my opinion