lineage variations

[thecrowrains]

{I've taken the extra care to make sure I started 'this' post in the correct subgroup} *unlike my prior recent posts - oops.

Wing Chun vs. Wing Tsun lineage:

I've been bulking up on internet research: The Leung Ting organization(s) state that the Yip Man lineage was 'given' the knowledge from Leung Ting's Grandmaster, who in turn gave it to others, Bruce Lee included.

If their statement is correct, then Yip Man was not the 'main man' sotospeak in spreading Wing Tsun/Chun. Rather, it was Leung Ting's Grandmaster. ***I AM forgetting this person's name, but it is on www.leungting.com. I quote Leung Ting's website audio loosely, "...Leung Ting's grandmaster in turn trained Yip Man, spreading Wing Tsun even further, including notably Bruce Lee and....".

Question: What has the Grandmaster Kwok organization said about this particular opinion/statement/fact?

I realize this sort of question is wholly based on bias and one's lineage, but if indeed there is historical, factual evidence in writing, it would sure be nice to know the facts, bias and one's own lineage notwithstanding.

[Togo]

I'm not that experienced in wing chun and i mean no offence when i say this but i really dislike Leung Tings organisation, i feel that he represents most of what is bad about martial arts these days. It has been proven time and time again that the man has lied on various matters, to sometimes even ridiculous levels.

An example of this was back in his hay day he claimed to be the inventor of the wooden dummy...enough said.

This in no way represents my opinions on his linage or skills as a martial artist, but as a senior grand master or w/e some of his claims are questionable, and sometimes not so modest.

This of course doesn't answer your question, and i'm not here to start a bitching linage war, and its for that reason i think a lot of people have been giving this thread a poor response, no one really wishes to get involved with it.

As for your question, in my opinion the linage isn't of great importance to me, i respect it as much as i should, but at the end of the day i'm more interested in keeping my teeth off the pavement out there in the real world than arguing over a pointless mash of lies, propoganda and history.

Peace

[Tom]

I can't say I know much about Leung Ting's practices and lineage, but I do know he used to charge Horst £12,000 a year to be considered part of his association. That's why Horst ended up joining our association. Sifu Kwok charges you the price of an association T-shirt...

[Dan]

Oh My Fucking God! (and I dont belive in God) Surly that cant be true, you would have to be pretty rich to be able to afford that and still live comfortably. I never did care much for LT VT but if thats true its just criminal!!

[Tom]

That's what Horst told me. If you want to be recognised as an instructor in Leung TIng's lineage, you have to pay about £12,000 a year.

[Tom]

He was also astounded that after about 10 years of Wing Chun under Leung Ting's lineage, and paying the money, he came to Majorca and got beaten in Chi Sao by guys who had been training under Sifu kwok for just three years...

[Dan]

like us from uni - but Horst is a nice guy and he is very humble so its nice to train with him, He is a member of this forum i think, tho he hasnt been on in a while

[superfoot]

On the sixth day He created Ving Tsun. On the seventh He rested.

The Almighty Grandmaster Leung Ting BSc is very lucky (or good at marketing). It seems that he was the only one taught the real wing chun by Yip Man in secret as he was the only one worthy, this is very handy as it is unprovable and a very useful marketing gimmick. In fact many 'grandmasters' claim such a thing. This doesnt mean that their wing chun/ ving tsun is bad but it may mean that they are a liar concerned more about money. Other gimmicks used by 'grandmasters' such as extended forms (a 365 move dummy form! > a 116) are used to differentiate their products from others and show superiority; these gimmicks are actually contradictory to the ethos of wing chun, which is simplicity, with Yip Mans greatest regret (?) being not able to simplify the forms any more.

This does not mean I dislike Leung Ting (although the truth is i think hes a dick), I think he is a smart businessman and from the little that iv seen of him a charismatic, funny teacher. However, for me, the true example of a wing chun practioner/ teacher is Ip Chun.

Regardless of lineage the proof is in the pudding, I dont care what/who/why/when about lineage, all i care about is what works and what is a good fighting system. Chi sao is how someones skill is judged in wing chun and also fighting sorts out any arguments about theory or technique. True practioners dedicated to improving will thus seek out the best instruction, however the inexperienced/ignorant MAs are the ones who suffer, beware bullshido.

I dont know exactly how sifu feels about LT, so am unable to comment.

However in a related topic, Ron Heimburger (spelling is wrong) used a similar marketing strategy when saying he was Ip Ching's "golden egg" student, which is a chinese way of saying number one student. I was present at Ip Ching's home when he was asked the validity of this statement, he had no idea what ron was talking about. Such a thing is commonplace and not surprising, to prove my credentials I could just go to a seminar and get a photo of myself with Ip Chun / whoever and then tell my students I had trained privately with Ip Chun for years blablabla. This would allow me to charge more and would be pretty sweet. This triad between Knowledge, Power and the subject is very obvious in any McDojo establishment and the power that the expert holds in contemporary culture makes such abuses likely to continue.

[Tom]

superfoot said:

Regardless of lineage the proof is in the pudding, I dont care what/who/why/when about lineage, all i care about is what works and what is a good fighting system. Chi sao is how someones skill is judged in wing chun and also fighting sorts out any arguments about theory or technique.

Well said. Although it does concern me somewhat that Wing Chun gets such a bad rep around the world because of people like this. It's no wonder people hate us.

[Dan]

Profound words

[Togo]

Guys could we all PLEASE remember to put in the trademarks and copyright symbols where relevant as i have enough trouble with the law without a huge law suit on my ass...

[superfoot]

dan if you are a non-believer please use the phrase "OH MY SCIENCE" instead of blaspheming

[tjwingchun]

tom said:

He was also astounded that after about 10 years of Wing Chun under Leung Ting's lineage, and paying the money, he came to Majorca and got beaten in Chi Sao by guys who had been training under Sifu kwok for just three years...

Horst is now living in Majorca and has been training a couple of times a week with me so don´t expect the same easy meat pmsl.

As far as this thread is concerned Leung Ting is nothing but a money making liar, but his statement is also totally untruthful.

Yip Man´s sifu/teacher/master was Chan Wah Soon (also Leung Bik).

Leung Ting was taught by his uncle who was taught by Leung Sheung who was taught by Yip Man.

The marketing lies of WT should never be confused with the truth, all it takes is a small amount of searching with an open mind to know how false their claims are, history will record the legacy of Leung Ting and his followers will have to reconcile themselves for believing him.

[Tom]

Still, at least he's not Coda Scott.