YouTube's clips

[thecrowrains]

I assume that it is not that important, for those of us not affiliated with them, but...

... I was doing name-word searches in YouTube, to see what has been posted on other teachers of differing Wing Chun Arts, namely Wing Tzun, Tsun, etc.

Emin B. has some vicious clips of actual hard facial contact with his "slaps" and even in some cases, actual clenched fist contact to his students/sparring partners' heads.
Ouch.

Question: Am I missing something? Does heavy blows like that exist as commonplace in all Wing Chun classes?

There was even a clip of a "Kamon" Wing Chun in England, and Alan Gibson, and some others, but I am not sure who they are , but then again, folks like myself are extremely removed from the "who's who" information living in Alaska.

I can assume that the larger the city, the more varied the Wing Chun teachers are?

peace,
Eric B.

[Tom]

Generally speaking I think it comes down to who you're training with. Last session I did some Chi Sau with Phil (Rosenrot on here) and he hits pretty hard. It was eye opening, cos I haven't trained like that in a while. I seemed to have lapsed into doing "soft" Chi Sau with people, whereas I used to just go for it every time. My ribs paid the price in the end, cos I'd got used to defending against people who weren't really trying to get through to me, which is totally stupid now that I think about it.

But to answer your question, I don't think it is commonplace in Wing Chun. Certainly most beginners don't hit that hard. Probably due to them still being uncomfortable with the techniques, and/or being new to martial arts.

I would say that training with someone who is going to hit you, (not hard enough to hurt you, but hard enough to let you know they could have done worse) should be an intergral part of your training once you get past the early stages. If nothing else, it should train you to try and keep your cool when someone is being aggressive towards you.

Chi Sau is never going to be a substitue for full contact fighting, but I still think that aggression has a part to play in it. And I mean aggression in the sense of being a threat, as opposed to being emotionally angry. But understand that a lot of people are going to be agressive with you because they have a point to prove. I can't help but feel that when I see these super aggressive Wing Chun guys, that they're perhaps covering up some other flaw in their technique. I don't know that for sure having never trained with any of them, but it seems like their aggression is making up for something.

So yeah, training in an aggressive way has it's plus points, but it shouldn't be all there is to your learning.

Now I'm off to pick some fights in town with large groups of hard looking guys, so that Phil doesn't hand my arse to me on a plate again next training sesh.

Adieu

[superfoot]

In my view, chi-sau should be without contact, simply show you can get through, then you can work out together why this happened and how it could be stopped so you can both learn. Chi-sau is not fighting, it is not sparring, it is a learning exercise.

I of course think that is also important to get used to taking a hit, however both training partners should agree to it. This is where sparring comes in.

I dont know how commonplace the heavy blows you describe are. Ip Chun says this on the matter:

"There is only one way to test if your teacher is a real master of Wing Chun. If the master is willing to be attacked by you during Chi Sau he [sexist or what Ip Chun!] is a real Wing Chun master. If he punches back then he is not a good Wing Chun master because he is afraid of being punched by you again. You only attack in terms of defence. If the master is going to be attacked and only makes a little touch, mock fighting, he is good; if he punches back heavily then he is not a good master. In fact a good master will instruct you to attack, knowing you do not have a chance, you cannot hit him because he is a master. Nobody, including the master, is willing to be hit by students. If the master is not strong enough to receive your attack he will not ask you to attack and will just do defence. In this case he will punch you first to make you afraid so you will not punch him back. This is how you can tell which one is the good master."

[thecrowrains]

Thanks to you both for the viewpoints. As a NOVICE myself, I'd really see myself prefering to learn via the non-contact environment, initially, as I would surely develope an insecurity and back away from the chi sau if my jaw and nose kept getting broken, bashed in, or bruised.

As for the particular YouTube clips I watched I do not know the context 'behind' each clip of Emin Boztepe. Visually it was stunning**, witnessing these students being literally hit hard where the video showed their head snapping back. Some of them actually tried to defend and get their own "licks in", but this led to more abuse (if that's a fair word). Emin was regularly locking their necks with arm locks and repeatedly opened them up for constant neck breaks, by way of a downward elbow strike. Ouch! Obviously Emin wasn't following through on these specific neck strikes, or else all of his chi-sau partners would end up paralyzed.

**Stunning by the sheer force of how he manhandled them at will; stunning that he was willing to subject his students to this onslaught of force. Maybe he wants his students to be rough and tough and never lose a fight. Per chance a teacher's perspective and/or the way he was taught by Leung Ting?/Kernspecht? Of note: Emin's forearms and shoulders always, always appeared in-line with his students' neck and face, even if they were at his own 6' + height. & his students' hands and arms seemed to constantly fall below chest height.

I could be wrong as to his teachers, just read data on his website. Do your teachers there in England discuss Boztepe, Leung Ting, or Kernspecht on occasion?

[Tom]

superfoot said:

In my view, chi-sau should be without contact,

I've seen your Chi Sau Ad...

[Dan]

yeah i was thinking that hahaha

[thecrowrains]

Dan, Superfoot, and Tom,

Who were you referring to Tom, regarding their Chi Sau? I have been isolated in Alaska without any Chi Sau partners, so I assume it is one of your students?

Is he/she good?

As for the YouTube video clips of the Chi Sau with Emin Boztepe's students = holy smokes those guys take vicious beatings by Boztepe, if they call elbows and punches to the face commonplace.

I wonder what Sifu Kwok would think of that? ?

regards,
Eric

[Dan]

Superfoot is Ad

Yeah he is good

[Tom]

thecrowrains said:

Dan, Superfoot, and Tom,

Who were you referring to Tom, regarding their Chi Sau? I have been isolated in Alaska without any Chi Sau partners, so I assume it is one of your students?

Is he/she good?

As for the YouTube video clips of the Chi Sau with Emin Boztepe's students = holy smokes those guys take vicious beatings by Boztepe, if they call elbows and punches to the face commonplace.

I wonder what Sifu Kwok would think of that? ?

regards,
Eric

Yeah, I was referring to Superfoot. I've seen him do some "vigorous" Chi Sau in the past

And I doubt whether Sifu would be overly impressed by their teaching methods...

[superfoot]

Like sifu doesnt get "over excited" too, you have to be fast vs some people, thats when the control goes, least i dont through people into wardrobes or onto their wives dan until i enrage them into a "rabid biting frenzy", or slap off nerdlingers glasses (phil), or bohan bomb people in teh face tom (its good to get a bit of aggro going, i miss csk's "input").

Sorry that you miss out on all the 'inside jokes' my alaskan friend!

[kizz0]

Yeah Dan, you punched me in the face twice last sunday!!!

[Dan]

i think you will find one of them was a palm strike but yeah i did appologise about that. As for training in China Martin was going for it so i dont feel bad about that.

[Tom]

kizz0 said:

Yeah Dan, you punched me in the face twice last sunday!!!

And he bust my nose.

[Dan]

what - when - how?

Also did Kiz tell you the exuast fell off my car hahaha

Kiz- it had fallen off about 10 secs before you rang me, whe i looked back in the road there it was lol

[kizz0]

It DID fall off? hahahaha