Cross Training

[rosenrot]

"Wing chun is a conceptual system. It's not a system that's based on 'technique vs technique', but rather 'expression' of our body guided by principles of the system. In the begining, wing chun training is to develop certain attributes within ourselves in order for us to apply the 'tools' of wing chun efficiently. If we were to mix and match wing chun in the begining, we are actually impeding the development of our wing chun 'mindset' and attributes because many other styles actually contravine wing chun princples." - Chisauking

My major criticism of this paragraph would be its vague nature which doesn't respond effectively to anything that has been said here...

Moreover, I would argue that fighting requires a certain mindset and we should be learning to develop attributes that will lead us to be effective fighters. This transcends boundaries between styles and any training which furthers our ability to fight, regardless of how varied it is, is therefore useful.

"Also, wing chun teaches the practitioner to strike the nearest target with the closest weapon, but BJJ teaches the opposite. If we were to adopt the BJJ mindset in our wing chun, then we would reach down to our opponent's knees and try to punch our opponent's knee cap!" - Chisauking

This statement is just foolish, comparing two very different styles: one being primarily a competition, the other a self-defence art. BJJ compliments striking arts very well as it provides technical and practical techniques while on the ground. I think you may be trying to say that BJJ is no good for striking, which is true. However if you work on good take-downs this becomes less of a problem (see Royce Gracie).

"Wing chun is a very specialised style, just like when you choose a specialised subject at uni. Do you think it would be very clever to take on 4 different degrees at the same time? Or, do you think you can focus on ONE subject better, and then to take on another after you have completed the last?" - Chisauking

Taking on four degrees would make my knowledge less in depth, but more widespread, probably being more useful for life as a whole. This I feel is the same with cross-training and fighting: the broadest range of skills is the most useful as you can play to your opponent's weaknesses. Example: WC v. Karate/judo fighter: the latter has the option of taking down his opponent and knowing what to do in that area if he feels he cannot compete on the feet, whereas the WC artist is limited to stand-up striking. This is not to say that the more rounded fighter always wins, but by having a range of skills you are probably giving yourself the best chance you can.

"Fact: WSL took up boxing for a very short period. Once he'd discovered wing chun, he NEVER want back to boxing. Unlike UFC or K1, WSL challenged all the best fighters at the time, with no rules or weight limits." - Chisauking

The chances of WSL training at any good boxing gyms in China are very limited. Furthermore, WC may just have been the style that suited him the best and so it made sense for him to study it. However, at least having trained in boxing would give him an insight into the tactics of possible opponents: surely a useful attribute?

As for challenging the best fighters of the time, I assume you mean those in China, most of whom would have styles based on traditional Kung Fu? I doubt he fought any pro-boxers, NCAA champions or BJJ black belts (all of whom compete in the UFC). As for there being no rules, there were no rules in the first UFC events: no prohibited strikes, no weight classes and no time limits. The WC guys who did appear got beaten very quickly, meanwhile BJJ's Royce Gracie was unstoppable thanks to his opponents complete lack of submission training.

"Where do you think the luk-dim-boon gwan came from? Do you know who conceived Choy-lay-fut? Do you know what Cheung San Fung (taichi master) was teaching before he's conceived taichi? Cross training was edvident 100s years ago in China!" - Chisauking

I don't feel this is cross-training in the modern sense (i.e. post 1993) These styles are unlikely to be as varied as the training of the modern mixed-martial artist as can be seen by the Chinese martial arts that remain today. Most styles of Kung Fu are striking arts and while I've heard of Chinese wrestling I doubt it encompasses clinch-work, shoots and scrambles or submissions as Greco-Roman, freestyle and BJJ do respectively. This is why MMA fighters will train in all of these areas to become the most well rounded they can be.

"It's quite obvious that many on here is brain washed with the 'mma' mentality. I think you should rename this forum 'Lancaster MMA (pretend wing chun) kungfu'" - Chisauking

Firstly, I'm a big MMA fan and you've mainly been talking to me, no need to tar everyone here with the same brush. Secondly, those of us who are receptive to cross-training have been influenced by perceived gaps in WC or simply because we enjoy a variety of styles. This is not being brainwashed: it is a conscious choice based on experience and logic.

I'd like to conclude by inviting Chisauking to come and train up here with us. You clearly have an in depth knowledge of WC and its history and, if we are as blinkered as you suggest, you would be able to open our eyes to the possibilities that WC offers.

Same goes to Togo, you come across as a sound guy: if you're ever near here, come and train!

[superfoot]

csk, thanks for clarifying what you mean, i do actually understand and see the point you are trying to make. However i also agree with Togo that the way you've done it is none too efficient, sharing your experience rather than insulting others will make it much easier for people to comprehend you and empathise with you.

[Togo]

Cheers very much for the invite there mate, I doubt i'm going to be in that neck of the woods any time soon but you never know, and i'm defo up for some extra training

[Dan]

"Taking on four degrees would make my knowledge less in depth, but more widespread" - Phil That analogy seems to sum up the debate in one sentence - it depends what you are going for.

But ChiSaoKing, you muct understand this is a Wing Chun forum and most members of the Lancaster University WC club do train Wing Chun and only Wing Chun. However if people want to tarin other styles because they think it helps them thats up to them and the fact people use this forum to discuss the pro's and cons of each approch for me is only a good thing.....

[rosenrot]

Yeah Dan I appreciate that. I was curious as to which approach people on here preferred or thought more practical in MA or fighting: wide-ranging or in-depth?

[chisauking]

"Taking on four degrees would make my knowledge less in depth, but more widespread" - Phil That analogy seems to sum up the debate in one sentence - it depends what you are going for.

csk: Taking four degrees at the same time would not make your knowledge more 'widespread' at all. You wouldn't have enough time in the day to absorb & digest all the information on the four subjects, therefore you would not be able to grasp the core basics\fundamentals of the individual subjects....and without comprehension of the subjects, one would not be able to further the course any higher. Another analogy would be to cook four meals at once. It's not possible to focus on all four meals at the same time, and you would simply end up with 4 unedible meals.

But ChiSaoKing, you muct understand this is a Wing Chun forum and most members of the Lancaster University WC club do train Wing Chun and only Wing Chun. However if people want to tarin other styles because they think it helps them thats up to them and the fact people use this forum to discuss the pro's and cons of each approch for me is only a good thing.....

csk: Once again, I never said people shouldn't cross train. But, since this is a 'wing chun' forum, I'm simply pointing out why it's unreasonable to learn wing chun and other 'contradicting' style all at the same time for a beginner with only 4-months' experience.

Even one of the most 'gifted' martial artist -- and an advocate of cross training -- stated: It's better to learn ONE technique well, rather than 1000 lousy techniques. That person, btw, was Bruce Lee. In the same way, it's better to learn ONE degree well, rather then struggling with the impossible task of 4, and ending up with nothing at all.

Going by what some are saying on this forum, it's obviously clear that your comprehension of wing chun is poor at best! You really need to sit down with Sam and ask him to explain the 'basics' to you.

Say, you are all super-gifted, and you can learn & absorb BBJ, WC, Thai Boxing, western boxing, lightingthounderfart, etc, etc. all at once. What are you going to use in a real fight? Are you going to use BJJ? WC? Kickboxing?...............By the time it takes you to make a decision....it's tooooooo late. Your opponent would have smashed you in the face. In the reality of combat, you have micro-seconds to act. If you fill your mind with too many options, you are actually delaying your thoughts process. Those micro-seconds could mean the difference between winning & losing; life or death. Ask yourself: which question would take longer to answer. A question with 5 choices, or a question with 100 choices?
The answer, of course, is the question with 100 choices. That's why wing chun is a subtractive system. The system is stripped to the bare minium in order to speed up our 'thoughts process' and therefore our reflex\response time during combat. Wing chun is designed with 'efficiency' in mind. By adding techniques & bolting on other systems to wing chun only demonstrate you don't really understand its concept. What was once a fluid & live system is now a turned into a 'chopsuey' style.

street scenario: 250ilbs scumbag fires a right cross to your face. The MMA wing chun practitioner: Let me think, shall I use a tan-sau? Maybe a thai jab? BJJ grappling?? Western boxing is more truthful?? Whackkkkkkkkkkk. Blood pours out of his smashed nose. By the time he'd made his decision, it's too late!
As he's being carried to the ambulance on the sretcher, he thinks to himself: I should have used praying mantis!

[rosenrot]

"What are you going to use in a real fight? Are you going to use BJJ? WC? Kickboxing?...............By the time it takes you to make a decision....it's tooooooo late." - Chisauking

If you stand there and decide which style to use you have missed the point of cross-training entirely. The aim is not to give yourself a confusing amount of options, but simply to find techniques which you can make work under pressure regardless of what martial arts those techniques come from.

[chisauking]

rosentor sez: If you stand there and decide which style to use you have missed the point of cross-training entirely. The aim is not to give yourself a confusing amount of options, but simply to find techniques which you can make work under pressure regardless of what martial arts those techniques come from.

csk: When you are training\drilling any particular system, you are effectively embedding an array of 'options' of techniques into your subconscious. In simplier terms, one will fight the way they train. Take boxers, for example. It's very, very easy to kick boxers in the knee, because they have 'embedded' the rules of no kicking into their subconscious.

[rosenrot]

I agree that your training will greatly affect your fighting, but would argue that some form of contact sparring (governed by a few rules for obvious safety) is an essential way to prepare for combat when incorporated into system of other drills etc. It teaches the basics of movement, range, thinking while fighting and taking punishment, which I feel are difficult to pick up from drills or chi-sau. Furthermore, I believe a wide range of techniques can be learned and practiced simultaneously in MMA style sparring so that the subconscious is programmed to accept an large range of options while fighting.

As for kicking boxers in the knee, I'll agree their stance may make them vulnerable to such attacks, but this is compensated for by the amount of time boxers spend working on foot-speed and reactions. Both of these reduce the apparent danger of low kicks.

[Dan]

Ok firstly my knowledge of Wing Chun is undoubtedly more extensive than yours that’s is why I helped Sifu Kwok write his most recent book Mastering Wing Chun, so don’t make insults if you don’t know the facts.

And as you have alluded to the fact you have some Wing Chun experience you should know that in a fight you should not think you should just act. If you think what to do it will be too late, and although in a fight I would only ever use wing chun as its all I know I think the idea is that those who learn other things like Rosenrot would just do what comes natural to them and so wouldn’t be thinking anyway. However if your point was that giving yourself more options complicates it you only have to think of how many different WC approaches you could use to cover a straight punch. Ie. Pak, Tan, Biu, Jut, Jum, Bong, Turning punch, Kup Sao etc…. Therefore regardless of whether you know one system or 5 all thought process’s must be removed if you are to win, as you said it’s the fractions of a second that make all the difference.

[Tom]

Can I just point out that Sifu Kwok has studied White Crane, as well as incorporating Carlson Gracies ground techniques into his self defence teaching. He also teaches us some basic locks and holds. Note I didn't say "Wing Chun" Teaching, as Sifu always makes a point of telling us where individual moves come from.

Chisauking, you might want to check out the "Double Impact" Seminar DVD, which Sifu Kwok conducted with Carlson Gracie. To use Sifu Kwok as an example of someone who doesn't promote cross training, in an argument against a group of people that know him personally, strikes me as being deeply foolish. We train with him on a weekly basis, and I can assure that not everything he teaches us is Wing Chun. That's a large part of why I respect him so much, because he teaches us what he thinks we need to know, be it Wing Chun or otherwise.

Undoubtably in cross training a good knowledge of the systems you're borrowing from is essential, and I agree with you that you should know one style well before you start thinking about incorporating others, or else you end up with a confused mess of a system. Theory is just as important as application, and you can't expect to have a solid theoretical basis when all you do is lift techniques from different arts.

Also, you seem to think that cross training means that you only incorporate techniques into your fighting style. It is my understanding that cross training can mean fitness training too. Wing Chun is a fantastic fighting style, but is it good for fitness? No, not really.

It promotes good health, but is it going improve your physical fitness? Not really. Not in the way Boxing might for example. Personally, I learn Wing Chun for the techniques, but I have some background in Tae Kwon Do and Boxing as well. TKD taught me how to kick properly, and I applied that knowledge to my Wing chun, the result being that I could kick your legs off if I wanted to.

Wing Chun works because the practitioner doesn't have to have stunning physical fitness in order to defend themselves. But at the same time, a fat, 50 year old obese guy who is out of shape, but knows Wing Chun won't be able to defend himself as well as a physically fit 20 year old with the same amount of knowledge will. It stands to reason. Yes Wing Chun might be theoretically perfect (although I suspect it isn't really), but who do you know that can perfectly apply the system in any given circumstance?

In summary, cross training can only benefit your fighting style but you have to have the right mentality and understanding of what a fighting system actually is. On top of which, not every art works for everyone. I tried Kickboxing once and found it didn't suit me at all. That said, there are elements of Muay Thai that I can see as being incredibly useful to me personally, as I have a tendency to use my elbows a lot. So it's always going to come down to an individual practitioners personal limitations. What about a guy with one arm doing Wing Chun? Is it perfect then? Should he even be doing Wing Chun?


Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject.

[chisauking]

an sez:Ok firstly my knowledge of Wing Chun is undoubtedly more extensive than yours that’s is why I helped Sifu Kwok write his most recent book Mastering Wing Chun, so don’t make insults if you don’t know the facts.

csk: Helping Sam write his book doesn't automatically mean you have an extensive knowledge of wing chun at all. It could be down to Sam's English limits, or he could have just ask you to 'spell check' for him

dan:And as you have alluded to the fact you have some Wing Chun experience you should know that in a fight you should not think you should just act.

csk: If you should just act in a fight, what is the purpose of learning any self defence at all? I thought the point of learning wing chun is so you can respond efficiently on a mental & physical level during time of need, using wing chun.

dan:If you think what to do it will be too late, and although in a fight I would only ever use wing chun as its all I know I think the idea is that those who learn other things like Rosenrot would just do what comes natural to them and so wouldn’t be thinking anyway.

csk: Again, if you rely on what comes natrually, why bother learning wing chun?

dan: However if your point was that giving yourself more options complicates it you only have to think of how many different WC approaches you could use to cover a straight punch. Ie. Pak, Tan, Biu, Jut, Jum, Bong, Turning punch, Kup Sao etc…. Therefore regardless of whether you know one system or 5 all thought process’s must be removed if you are to win, as you said it’s the fractions of a second that make all the difference.

csk: Once again, you miss the main point. The more options you have, the longer it takes to respond. Maybe this concept is beyond your comprehension.

[chisauking]

Tom: I don't know whether it's because you can't be bothered to read my post properly or you lack comprehension skills.....but let me state once again: I'm not against cross training. Can you get that? Has it sunked in? I really don't understand why you would address in a lenthy post issues which I don't disagree with.

However, what's in contention is whether a beginner in wing chun can\should take up several different styles at the same time.

To save all the BS, like me ask you and dan a simple question, and I hope you can answer in plain English. Q: Should a beginner with less than 4- 6-months experience of wing chun, before he\she has even completed SLT and the basics, before they have absorb & digested the fundamentals\princples, start several styles at the same time?

I just want to address a major misconception made by tom.

tom sez: Also, you seem to think that cross training means that you only incorporate techniques into your fighting style. It is my understanding that cross training can mean fitness training too. Wing Chun is a fantastic fighting style, but is it good for fitness? No, not really.

csk: That's a silly 'umbrella' statment you'd made, tom. Wing chun training is as extrem or as passive as the practitioner want to make it. Just because your club train at a 'low' intensity level doesn't mean every other wing chun club is the same. For this reason, wing chun is suitable for the old or young, super fit or out of shape. For myself, I sweat buckets every time I play the forms or the dummy. After every training session, my shirt is soaking wet. Further more, after gwoh-sau training with my partners, the intensity of my cardiovascular workout is far more intense than sprinting or rope work.

any way, I look forward to your reply.....my tea is ready!

[rosenrot]

"Once again, you miss the main point. The more options you have, the longer it takes to respond." - Chisauking

No, you're missing Dan's point, which is that WC itself offers many options when dealing with simple attacks. So does training in WC complicate one's response? No. Training helps us find a technique which suits us and we can employ effectively without thinking.

"Again, if you rely on what comes naturally, why bother learning wing chun?" - Chisauking

Surely the whole point in training any style is so that good techniques - as distinct from frantic reactions - come naturally when in a stressful situation without the need to think. If you still need to devote great thought to fighting even after MA training then you haven't been training properly.

"Wing chun training is as extrem or as passive as the practitioner want to make it." - Chisauking

Agreed. However I think its clear that most WC schools are not particularly taxing judging by most internet videos and comments posted on Bullshido.

"For myself, I sweat buckets every time I play the forms or the dummy. After every training session, my shirt is soaking wet." - Chisauking

This could just mean you are very unfit...

[Dan]

FIRST POINT - no personally i wouldn't recommend a beginner train more than one system in the first 4-6 months.

SECOND POINT - The point of doing Wing Chun or any martial art is so that what you practice in lessons becomes so ingrained in you that you can do it without thinking. i.e. like when you touch a hot oven you dont think shit my hand is burning you just move you hand because the nervous make you hand move bypassing your brain completely at which point you think shit i have bunt my hand. This example isnt exactly the same as learning martial arts but the idea is you tain your drills so much and your chi sao so much that you know what to do regardless of thinking it hapens and if you stop you can think about what happened but in chi sao you dont think about how to counter a powerful attack you just do it (or dont and get hit).

There are four stages involved in any kind of learning and it applies alot to martial arts so i will quote a section from Sifu Kwoks book. (I did not write this bit, though when you say "It could be down to Sam's English limits, or he could have just ask you to 'spell check' for him" having been the one actually making the contribution i know that wasn't the case. I wrote some of the articles with Sifu kwoks help of course but the point is he trusts my knowledge of Wing Chun enough to let me contribute to it and edit it all together.)

QUOTE FROM MASTERING WING CHUN

"In the martial arts we begin by teaching the most basic of methods using a stair step process to advance to more advanced skills. Mastery is judged not by knowing, or being able to perform a technique, but in how the technique can be relied upon under surprise attack in a very dynamic and violent setting. The mere knowledge of and ability to perform a technique when given time to think about the method, is utterly useless in a fighting situation. The technique must “perform itself” in order to be relied upon.

Dr. Maltz explains the four stages of learning as follows:

1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence

As you review these four levels, you can see the progression. As a student of the martial arts, we come into the school generally thinking we know at least how to do some rudimentary skills like punching. But upon being taught the proper method of punching, which includes such considerations as balance, power generation, and angle of execution, we realize that we didn’t really know how to throw a punch.
At this time we pass from level one (Unconscious Incompetence) to level two (Conscious Incompetence). We now know that we do not know how to throw a proper punch. So we go about learning the proper mechanics of the technique. As soon as we are introduced to the technique and are able to reproduce satisfactory results in performing the method, we have passed from level two into level three (Conscious Competence). However, the technique will still not be a reliable method of self-protection that can be used in a violent encounter.

In a fight, you seldom have time to think, but must react. This means that even if you are able to do a technique and reproduce satisfactory results with the technique, it is still not a tool that can be relied upon in self-protection. In order for the technique to be reliable, you must have entered the fourth level of learning (Unconscious Competence). This is when you will experience “Conditioned Reflex” in your technique. This is when the technique “Does itself”.

It takes time and repetition in training in order to Build your kung fu into a conditioned reflex."